What are your thoughts on Truby’s 22 steps?

The terminology of Ordeal and Inmost Cave goes back to Joseph Campbell’s HERO WITH A THOUSAND FACES and can’t really be discussed adequately outside that context, which leads to the babylonian confusion.

Hauge’s structural approach is really coarse and overlooks a few essential psychological stages in my view. I much prefer Vogler but would never look at one teacher alone to try and understand the structural mechanics of a good screenplay. That’s why my teaching includes the best of all of these, plus a fair share of my own, in particular the handling of POV and Events vs. Actions.

I see what’s happening here, it’s just different terminology.

However, Vogler seems to have the Supreme Ordeal (End of Act 2 Turning Point) actually IN the Inmost Cave whereas Hague saves the Inmost Cave for the Act 3 Climax.

OK I can see why Vogler calls this end of Act 2 All is Lost moment the SUPREME ORDEAL as it’s the supreme ‘negative’ ordeal where all seems lost. As this blog post states:

“The Supreme Ordeal: You’ve walked into the Innermost Cave to confront your worst fears once and for all, and you know there is no turning back; you either make it or break it. This is the final test, the final stage of your initiation. You’ve journeyed into your Innermost Cave to face down the Evil One and suddenly you realized that he, she or it is stronger than you thought. All hope seems lost.”

https://lifecoachesblog.com/2006/03/14/the-heros-journey-part-7-the-supreme-ordeal/

However, in movies that follow Hague’s 3 Act structure I would suggest the entry to the Inmost Cave to fight the Evil One is the Final Battle.

Hague points out that “in Gladiator, at The ‘Major Setback’ or All is Lost moment Maximus refuses to help the leader of the Senate, and Commodus plots to destroy both Maximus and the Senate.

He says “Something must happen to your hero that
makes it seem to the audience that ALL IS LOST. These
disastrous events leave your hero with only one option: he must make one, last, all-or-nothing, do-or-die effort as he enters…

The Final Push

Maximus conspires to escape from Proximo and lead his former troops against Commodus.

Beaten and battered, your hero must now risk everything he has, and give every ounce of strength and courage he possesses, to achieve his ultimate goal. During this stage of your script, the conflict is overwhelming, the pace has
accelerated, and everything works against your hero, until he reaches:

The Climax

Maximus has his FINAL BATTLE with Commodus in the arena.

Several things must occur at the climax of the film: the hero must face the BIGGEST OBSTACLE of the entire story; he must determine his own fate and the outer motivation must be resolved once and for all.”

https://www.storymastery.com/articles/30-screenplay-structure

So, to me, what Hague calls the final push is Vogler’s journey to the Inmost Cave and what Vogler calls the ‘final test to face down the evil one’ is what Hague calls ‘The Final Battle.’

The two structures seem in conflict with each other and it would be fascinating to see how they correlate them in their conferences.

I personally prefer the Hague 3 Act Structure. So does Avatar follow Vogler’s 12 steps or Hague’s 3 Act? Hmmm.

definition of ‘supreme’:

1. Greatest in power; paramount or dominant.
2. Greatest in importance, degree, significance.3. Ultimate; final:
So the ‘supreme ordeal’ has to be The Final Battle, doesn’t it?

I think it’s just an issue with semantics. I wouldn’t call the end of Act 2 THE ‘supreme’ ordeal because there is an even more supreme ordeal ahead – the Final Battle. I defo prefer major setback.

As you know Hague calls the end of Act 2 the MAJOR SETBACK or ALL IS LOST moment. Doesn’t ‘supreme’ mean ‘the highest’ ‘most extreme’ ? Isn’t the Final Battle the toughest, most extreme obstacle in the Hero reaching his goal? Then surely the Supreme Ordeal has to be the Final Battle. Or am I missing something obvious?!

No, the Supreme Ordeal marks the end of Act 2.
The Act 3 Climax is called The Resurrection.